An Interview with Vandana Shiva

One year after I first interned at Bija Vidya Peeth, I returned to interview Dr. Vandana Shiva. Vandana Shiva, one of my biggest inpsirations, has spent more than four decades arguing that the future of food is inseparable from the future of the planet, and that both depend on who controls the seed. Born in Dehradun in 1952, she trained as a physicist, completing a Ph.D. on quantum theory in Canada before turning to interdisciplinary work on science, technology, and environmental policy. In 1991 she launched Navdanya, a movement for biodiversity conservation and farmers' rights, which has since helped establish more than 150 community seed banks across 22 Indian states. A vocal critic of the Green Revolution, which she blames for pollution, the erosion of indigenous seed diversity, and farmers' dependence on costly chemical inputs, she is the author of more than 20 books and often called the "Gandhi of grain". Her honors include the Right Livelihood Award and the Sydney Peace Prize.

Diya: Hello Dr. Shiva, how are you doing? 

Dr. Shiva: I'm getting better by the day. 

Diya: I'm glad to hear that. I just had a few questions for you. It won't take longer than ten minutes. I just wanted to start by going into your childhood. Was there a specific moment that you can point to where you felt connected to nature or activism, where you felt that was what you were meant to do? 

Dr. Shiva: I was lucky to have been born in this district, Dehradun, and it's very beautiful. It's a very, very, beautiful place. And so I was actually born in the Himalayan Forest, part of it. And I don't think there's a single moment I can point, but my whole childhood is shaped by that natural beauty. 

Diya: I can definitely see that. Now, speaking about your journey as a student, I was surprised to learn that you studied quantum physics in college and you wrote your dissertation on quantum physics, actually. How would you say that shaped your approach to environmental activism, and specifically, was there a turning point where you decided to move from theoretical physics to environmental activism?

Dr. Shiva: Yes, I did my PhD in the foundations of theory on a thesis on hidden variables and on locality, and there and this is what I had been exploring. I did my MSC honors in particle physics and there were some questions in my mind. All the differences between classical mechanics and quantum mechanics, and my textbooks and teachers could not explain. So I said, okay, I'll study this for my PhD. So anyone whose papers I'd studied, I would write to them and say, I will be doing a PhD on this topic. All of them wrote and said, I'm joining the University of Western Ontario in Canada. So everyone I wrote to was shifting to the West, so I should also shift there. Because everyone I want to study with ended up being there. And in those days, there was something amazing that the Canadian government did; they literally doubled their salaries. And, you know, they could be from South Africa, they could be from Australia, they could be from Israel, but the Canadian government attracted the best quantum physicists from around the world. And I said if all the people I want to study with are in one place, that's where I should go. So that's where I went. 

Diya: So, we're staying right now at Navdanya, your organic farm where there is no pesticides, no chemical usage, just pure organic restorative farming. How did your work with Navdanya begin and what made you focus on seed conservation? 

Dr. Shiva: So, you know the inspiration to start Navdanya came from the fact that megacorporations like Monsanto want to own all the seeds of the world. But a seed is not an invention, a seed is not a machine. A seed is a self organized system of life. The word Navdanya, which means ‘Nine Seeds,’ you know, was chosen because I started saving seeds and collecting seats, and I went at the time to study in Punjab. I said, Punjab lost all its seed diversity. So I went to the south. I went to a place where a robber baron named Veerappan operated, who used to deal in sandalwood smuggling. I went to his area and I said out here, I will find all the seeds. Because everyone was so scared of this man, because he would kidnap them and demand ransom. Journalists, actors, politicians, everyone. Everyone said, "How are you going to the area? It’s so dangerous. I said, yeah, but here, I have nothing to give him for his ransom demand. Why would he take me? And the first farm I visited, I got off the jeep I was traveling in and the first farm I visited was a tribal farm. I had just finished a study in Punjab on monocultures and I found nine crops, and I said, wow, you were growing nine crops together? And this tribal peasant just looked at me and said, yes, Navdanya, you don't know the significance? I said, no, I don't know. What was so significant about the nine. He said there are nine celestial influences, navagraha, nine forms of Durga, navadurga, and the nine crops in my field aligns the diversity of our bodies in one harmony from the local to the cosmic level. I learned this from a tribal farmer who never had gone to school.

Diya: Yes, there’s some things that can never be taught in school. That's really cool. Um, what is your response to a lot of scientists who argue that GMOs are necessary to feed a growing population? How would you address that worldview? 

Dr. Shiva: Well, you know, I think anyone who says anything is necessary cannot be a scientist, because a good thing about science is that it teaches you the many paths to go from one place to another, to reach a different place. So scientists who say it's necessary to use GMOs for the food security of the world. It's unscientific, and also incorrect, because no GMO has been created to increase the yields of crops. All this will do is increase the use of pesticides in agriculture. It will not increase the food availability to people, but make the chemical dependency worse. And there have been enough cases, even in the United States, of people who have become victims, especially Roundup. That is when Monsanto sold itself to Bayer, the German company, which had made chemicals for Hitler’s Germany.

Diya: That makes a lot of sense, actually. 

Dr. Shiva: You know, they call Bayer aspirin maker. I call them the heroin maker. They made addictive compounds. They made all the early pesticides, and the wife of the chemical engineer who was leading the race to find chemicals to kill people, she actually committed suicide. She said that we must not do this, why are you spreading poisons in the world? Yeah, she committed, because he didn't listen.

Diya: That's awful. 

Dr. Shiva: So I think that the advantage of saving your seeds is creating a poison free world. 

Diya: So, speaking of which, I read that around the 70s and 80s, you were involved in the Chipko movement. When you were with the indigenous women representing the Chipko movement, what were some takeaways that you involved in that experience about ecology and resistance and feminine power?

Dr. Shiva: I went to the University of Western Ontario to do my PhD in the foundations of quantum theory, but I went to these hills to study ecology and biodiversity from the women of Chipko, who've never been to school. There is something that schools can't teach here. And so I learned all my ecology and biodiversity ideals from them. So what is the most significant thing I learned from them? The first thing, I mean, you know, you've done a PhD. I mean, you're feeling very, very smart. But what I learned from the women of Chipko, they might not have been to school, but they knew everything about every plant on the mountain. They were learned, you know, and I learned humility from them. That I cannot feel arrogant because I did a PhD, you know? I didn't live the life they've lived of getting everything they need from the forest, the fodder for the animals, the organic matters that the fields need instead of urea and chemical fertilizer and so really, the Chipko women who might be the second thing I learned from them, was that it was a nonfunded moment. There was no money coming in. Nothing. All they collected was a fistful of rice from each family. And then they cooked that rice together, they'd be 300 women camping in a forest. So for 300 women the rice would be cooked. I learned that you might not have money, but if you're together, you have a different kind of wealth. The capital of togetherness. 

Diya: I don't want to keep you too long so I’ll ask you one last question. So you mentioned that you were interviewed recently by Dia Mirza. And I think that what the cause of conservationism needs is like a multi pronged approach from all sides of people of all walks of life. What would you say is the role of young women and young people in general, maybe in more cosmopolitan areas, like Dia Mirza, in terms of conservationism? What can children who are in the cities do? 

Dr. Shiva: My generation was breaking free of mechanistic physics and entering into the quantum world. But the new generation is in a new world. It's a multifaceted world. And what the new generation of young people should know is that in every action of life there's an invitation to conserve and rejuvenate. There is always a more eco friendly option. 

Diya: Thank you so much!

Dr. Shiva: Thank you to you. Thank you and wish you the best.